Free Movement of People

[Ralph]

Let left and right unite together to condemn the free movement of people and the massive problems it has caused

Think I'll wait & see what replaces it after Brexit.

[Zambo]

Let left and right unite together to condemn the free movement of people and the massive problems it has caused

Think I'll wait & see what replaces it after Brexit.

Why wait, why not give us your opinion now on the level of free movement. Don't really want another Conservative blame post though if you can restrain yourself.

I know your views on the advantages, but do you see any disadvantages, and if so what are they?

[Ralph]

Let left and right unite together to condemn the free movement of people and the massive problems it has caused

Think I'll wait & see what replaces it after Brexit.

Why wait, why not give us your opinion now on the level of free movement. Don't really want another Conservative blame post though if you can restrain yourself.

I know your views on the advantages, but do you see any disadvantages, and if so what are they?

Says the bloke that would rather whinge about 'the left' than the government that's been in power for 6 1/2 years.

It's not the abandoning free movement that worries me, it's divorcing ourselves from the biggest trading bloc on planet earth. If we could just ditch freedom of movement consequence free it wouldn't bother me at all, but that's not on offer.

I'm also not convinced it will necessarily lead to a reduction in immigration. We will have to sign other trade deals. Will that lead to more 'freedom of movement' for people outside the EU? We nearly signed a trade deal with india but they wanted more rights for Indians to move here & it fell through. We're not going to able to thumb our nose at every country indefinitely.

If we leave the EU but the posinous debate about immigration continues that will be the worst of both worlds IMO.

So again - let's see what (the Conservative government) replaces freedom of movement with.

[Zambo]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

[m4rkb]

Blair's government did not set out to upset people by importing lots of immigrants and watching them put strain on the benefits system. Not least because there was no reason to do so.

As it was aimed at him, I expected m4rk to have suitably ridiculed horatio for that by now.

I do apologise for missing this I've been massively busy recently and have had a problem devioting as much time to arguing against the left's insanity as I'd like. But jhoratio's staggering sidestep on reality has left me stunned.

Does he not remember the famnous rub our noses in diversity comment? He should do because I mention it quite a bit on the grounds of the motivation behind it. And correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the motivation behind it exactly the issue?

Rubbing people's noses in anything is not meant as a friendly gesture. It's is one of spite. It's like trampling through someone's flowerbed because you're jealous of his flowers.

But we've been here god knows how many times and people like Hillman refuse to see the truth of that statement. It was purely intended as an act of left wing spite as admitted by, as Roy pointed out ,Andrew Neather.

so for this reason and many more, I still beleive there is an essental difference between the left and right even though they seem almost identical in policy in practice.

[Ralph]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

[Ralph]

Blair's government did not set out to upset people by importing lots of immigrants and watching them put strain on the benefits system. Not least because there was no reason to do so.

As it was aimed at him, I expected m4rk to have suitably ridiculed horatio for that by now.

I do apologise for missing this I've been massively busy recently and have had a problem devioting as much time to arguing against the left's insanity as I'd like. But jhoratio's staggering sidestep on reality has left me stunned.

Does he not remember the famnous rub our noses in diversity comment? He should do because I mention it quite a bit on the grounds of the motivation behind it. And correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the motivation behind it exactly the issue?

Rubbing people's noses in anything is not meant as a friendly gesture. It's is one of spite. It's like trampling through someone's flowerbed because you're jealous of his flowers.

But we've been here god knows how many times and people like Hillman refuse to see the truth of that statement. It was purely intended as an act of left wing spite as admitted by, as Roy pointed out ,Andrew Neather.

so for this reason and many more, I still beleive there is an essental difference between the left and right even though they seem almost identical in policy in practice.

They're not indentical. Net immigration is significantly higher now than when the Conservatives took office despite their cynical promise to cut it to the tens of thousands. A promise they made purely to get votes that they never had any intention of keeping.

[m4rkb]

Yes Ralph we know. They are on paper both as bad as each other with the Tories pipping them for top dog in incompetence.

The point I'm making which you lot seem to want to skirt well away from if the mentality in thinking between left and right. So far I haven't come acrosss anyone from the right claiming to support huge influxes on the grounds some other lot won't like it. But that is certainly one commonly found mentality of the left.

[Zambo]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

Sorry Ralph I'm not sure why you keep going on about goverments. Any government can be in power when the left fuck up as they always do.

[Ralph]

Yes Ralph we know. They are on paper both as bad as each other with the Tories pipping them for top dog in incompetence.

The point I'm making which you lot seem to want to skirt well away from if the mentality in thinking between left and right. So far I haven't come acrosss anyone from the right claiming to support huge influxes on the grounds some other lot won't like it. But that is certainly one commonly found mentality of the left.

Your mentalitity reasoning sounds like special pleading to me - 'Yes net immigration has risen since the Conservatives came to power but.........'

It's also made worse by the fact that at two General Elections they've made a manifesto commitment to reduce immigration to the ten of thousands. No doubt at the next election they'll promise it again.

[Ralph]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

Sorry Ralph I'm not sure why you keep going on about goverments. Any government can be in power when the left fuck up as they always do.

Even when we've got a Conservative government you find some contrived logic to blame everything that goes wrong on 'the left'.

[m4rkb]

I can't argue with that except I voted UKIP. but having failed to get elected or even gain any MPs, I make no secret of the fact I far prefer the tories to Labour. They've sure got some shite in their ranks but they haven't got Dianne Abbot , that other fat harridan Emily Thornbury who despises working class voters or penty more like them.

Again,despite similar failures on important issues, it's still a question of mentality and intention with me.

[Roy Twing]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

Sorry Ralph I'm not sure why you keep going on about goverments. Any government can be in power when the left fuck up as they always do.

Even when we've got a Conservative government you find some contrived logic to blame everything that goes wrong on 'the left'.

Your problem ralph, is that you only seem to see things from a party political aspect.

[Zambo]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

Sorry Ralph I'm not sure why you keep going on about goverments. Any government can be in power when the left fuck up as they always do.

Even when we've got a Conservative government you find some contrived logic to blame everything that goes wrong on 'the left'.

That's because there an awful lot of left thinking people in this country who have nothing to with governments.

[Roy Twing]

Ralph thinks that the parliamentary tories are right wing and the parliamentary labour lot are left wing.

[Kowalski]

I can't argue with that except I voted UKIP. but having failed to get elected or even gain any MPs, I make no secret of the fact I far prefer the tories to Labour. They've sure got some shite in their ranks but they haven't got Dianne Abbot , that other fat harridan Emily Thornbury who despises working class voters or penty more like them.

Again,despite similar failures on important issues, it's still a question of mentality and intention with me.

Indeed, at least Cameron stood firm when many nutters here were calling for us to open the floodgates to swarms of young males from areas rampant with extremism.

God knows how many Corbyn would have let in.

[Ralph]

I can't argue with that except I voted UKIP. but having failed to get elected or even gain any MPs, I make no secret of the fact I far prefer the tories to Labour. They've sure got some shite in their ranks but they haven't got Dianne Abbot , that other fat harridan Emily Thornbury who despises working class voters or penty more like them.

Again,despite similar failures on important issues, it's still a question of mentality and intention with me.

Indeed, at least Cameron stood firm when many nutters here were calling for us to open the floodgates to swarms of young males from areas rampant with extremism.

God knows how many Corbyn would have let in.

Stop it.

[Ralph]

You seem to be under the impression that only lefties appear in Government. They have infested every nook and cranny of society to the point of devestation. A bit like woodworm.

As for freedom of movement, because we did not decide to impose a restriction of labour movement like other countries, from Eastern European states, we experienced a surge in immigration driving wages down and making things tough for our people. For any group to work to the benefit of all, you need all to be on a similar economical footing.

So 'lefties' or 'the left' are to blame even when we've had 6 1/2 years of Conservative government. How convininet. You've constructed a thought process that means 'the left' are always going to be to blame, for everything, in all circumstances, no matter who is holding the levers of power.

Is it possible 'the right' occasionally gets things wrong or cynically makes promises they have no intention of keeping - on immigration for example?

I agree now we're leaving EU it would be utterly bizarre to keep freedom of movement. You don't leave a club & then continue to abide by its rules. But something will have to replace it & other countries might be insist that their citizens get more rights to move to the UK as a condition of any trade deal. I gave the example of India & the fact immigration was a stumbling block to a trade deal with them.

Sorry Ralph I'm not sure why you keep going on about goverments. Any government can be in power when the left fuck up as they always do.

Even when we've got a Conservative government you find some contrived logic to blame everything that goes wrong on 'the left'.

That's because there an awful lot of left thinking people in this country who have nothing to with governments.

So everything's the fault of the left even when the right are in power. Convenient.

[Ralph]

I can't argue with that except I voted UKIP. but having failed to get elected or even gain any MPs, I make no secret of the fact I far prefer the tories to Labour. They've sure got some shite in their ranks but they haven't got Dianne Abbot , that other fat harridan Emily Thornbury who despises working class voters or penty more like them.

Again,despite similar failures on important issues, it's still a question of mentality and intention with me.

No but they have increased net immigration since they took office which is what we're talking about. The Tories 'intention' was to allow net immigration to increase. Look at the levels of immigration from outside the EU which they can control if they wanted to.

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/12/ ... migration/

Talk tough do the opposite.

[Zambo]

So everything's the fault of the left even when the right are in power. Convenient.

Whatever Ralph, youve completely ignored several of mine and one of Roy's posts about this being not just about political ruling, but apart from that I don't see any right in power. If you think there is you must be pretty far left.

[Ralph]

So everything's the fault of the left even when the right are in power. Convenient.

Whatever Ralph, youve completely ignored several of mine and one of Roy's posts about this being not just about political ruling, but apart from that I don't see any right in power. If you think there is you must be pretty far left.

I think the Tories are centre-right. What do you think they are?

[Zambo]

Centre, but they have got MPs both left and right of that. I dont think you can call them a right wing party.

[Roy Twing]

So everything's the fault of the left even when the right are in power. Convenient.

Whatever Ralph, youve completely ignored several of mine and one of Roy's posts about this being not just about political ruling, but apart from that I don't see any right in power. If you think there is you must be pretty far left.

I think the Tories are centre-right. What do you think they are?

They're virtually indistinguishable politically, but the tories appear to have fewer morons (for want of a better word).
It baffles me why you hate the blues so much and love the reds, - is it a tribal thing?

[Ralph]

So everything's the fault of the left even when the right are in power. Convenient.

Whatever Ralph, youve completely ignored several of mine and one of Roy's posts about this being not just about political ruling, but apart from that I don't see any right in power. If you think there is you must be pretty far left.

I think the Tories are centre-right. What do you think they are?

They're virtually indistinguishable politically, but the tories appear to have fewer morons (for want of a better word).
It baffles me why you hate the blues so much and love the reds, - is it a tribal thing?

I don't love the reds. I think they're a complete shambles. But this issue of immigration baffles me. Tories promise to massively reduce net immigration (at two elections) & instead increase it by quite a large amount. You'd think their position would be indefensible but some here seem to think it's their duty to make excuses for them.

Why people who spent years slagging off Labour now try & defend the Tories is beyond me. We're obviously on a completely different wavelength.

[paolo]

ralph, from what i have read, the so called tories on here agree that the tory administration has been a disgrace on this topic

how many times do they have to tell you

i don't believe there is a way of preventing uncontrolled migration to the uk, especially from europe, so roachfords get to blighty via europe

did labour help open those gates

how do those gates get closed

are the people sick of uncontrolled immigration and the rate of immigration?

do you believe that immigration needs to be strictly controlled right now?