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Hillman avenger · Post by **Hillman avenger** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:22 am

I think some people have noticed I have not been posting recently. I was here and reading the forum but I have started to think it's just not worth the bother.

I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion. That is what it has given me over the years I have contributed , and I thank those who have responded, even if that is to categorically disagree. I find coherent disagreement stimulating. Indeed if we all agreed on everything it would be very dull.

However over the last few months real discussion and debate has disappeared. It is now overwhelmed by recitals of prejudice, stereotypes and generalisations. One mad poster gets endorsed by another. Logic has disappeared. Dissent or indeed any attempt to inject reality into matters invites abuse.

The sheer arrogance of some posters, convinced of their own superiority, is staggering . With others it is the malice which infects every post thus revealing nothing about the topic but an enormous amount about the poster. There are a few who compulsively do down anyone in the news, irrespective of their merits. Including the one who convinces himself he knows the script for world events and gets a real thrill from his enigmatic comments. Whatever happened to the world war, martial law, and all the rest of it he has droned on about? Initially it was interesting, then tedious, then sad and above all intensely annoying.

You have to wonder what personality defect drives this need to be cynical about everything.

There is a complete failure to grasp just how much the wisdom prevailing here has been contradicted. The “saviour of freedom”, the battler against “the establishment”, Trump, has ditched many of the campaign promises without a shred of embarrassment, remarking without irony that they were merely to get him elected , but which were never wise or feasible. This warrior against the status quo has placed around him the richest, but least experienced, team any president has created. Indeed a whole new, completely unelected, elite.

More fool you.

I don't think there has ever before been a case where there is serious discussion about the mental health of the president-elect. You know, the guy who can see us all killed in 30 minutes.

I don't recall a president -elect who has had to settle a court case for $25m , in effect conceding the business concerned was fraudulent.

Come to think of it, I can't remember a Foreign Secretary who had to be contradicted by number 10 within hours of a public statement. That would be the man who he-who-knows everything-but-can't tell-who-has-had-many careers told us would be Prime Minister. It didn't take a genius to see how wrong that was. On the morning he stepped out of the leadership contest he had EIGHTEEN pledged supporters. A mere hundred or so short of the number needed not to be a laughing stock.

No comment, too,I notice, on the revelation that most of the pro-Trump stories which populated the campaign, were created without any attempt at credibility by a (now rich) community in Macedonia. Why did those stories gain credence with the “alternative media”?,,simple..they wanted to hear them.. they have a population desperate for them...and the proper media saw through them.
But you, of course, lapped them up and congratulated yourselves on your worldliness.

And you had the cheek to lecture us about brainwashed...

It's deeply ironic that people who decried the cynicism of politicians choose to support the most cynical one we have ever witnessed. A man who has had to have it explained to him that it would be best to step away from his businesses while in office. A man who brought along one of his family to one of his first head of state meeting because that person would be running one of his businesses and he thought it might get them an inside track.

He is the worst example of what you claim to deplore, and you simply cannot see it.

Why on earth do you think Putin wanted him elected?

The mediocrity is astonishing.

There is so much desperation to decry the existing system that no evaluation has occurred as to what has replaced it. It has been made worse by the ludicrous Shakespearean expressions some have used and the sad mixing of it all with religious dialectic. What has happened has nothing to do with freedom and liberty. What has happened is that people like Trump and Farage have exploited you.

It's also deeply ironic re the EU that those who spoke so loud and long about the importance of “sovereignty” are happy to abuse those who agree and who point out that (a) referendums are not part of our constitution; and (b) that a simple “leave” outcome gives no idea of what it is intended should replace the EU . I and others were asking the same question on here for months before the vote, with no reply.

Well you got what you wanted. Chaos.

Of course, for some I am imprisoned in the thinking of my “masters” ( whoever they are supposed to be) and dependant on the BBC for information...neither is anywhere near correct but on the BBC what I have watched on here over the years is the determination to accuse it of bias. What that means in reality is that it does what it is supposed to...reflect the world. There are times when it gives airtime to what I deplore ( such as Farage's nasty smugness) but that simply demonstrates that it is doing what it is supposed to, ie strike a balance. Indeed it is now being accused of being insufficiently undiscriminating in some of its coverage of the referendum campaign, such as the persistent lie about “£350m a week”. That goes to show the way in which the BBC is judged, and judges itself, by higher standards than the rest.

Attacking the BBC for bias is like blaming the mirror because you're ugly.

The forum could also benefit in some education about politics In particular the term “socialist” or “leftie” is bandied around so they become meaningless. Let's be clear..far from being socialist, the EU is the capitalist's wet dream...we have not had a socialist government in Britain since 1950...no, anyone who has actually had any experience of our justice system will disagree that our judiciary is still overwhelmingly, male, white middle or upper class, and very far from radical. Oh,and Angela Merkel is very far from being one also.

These terms are so misused I have concluded that for some posters without the wit or imagination to do anything else, call people by these names because they think they are intrinsically insulting. They aren't. Their misuse is simply a signal that once again logic is being abandoned. Name calling is what it is, but a really poor example of it.

Mind you ignorance doesn't stand in the way of prejudice. A lovely example recently was the poster who expressed contempt for people who abuse food banks. I would agree, except that for most food banks you have to be referred by a social worker who knows you have exceptional hardship. But then people on benefits are broadly assumed to be lazy and or dishonest.

Funnily enough, I have no problem with knocking people abusing the benefit system. It is usually assumed that “lefties” support them, but that's not the case. They undermine the spirit and purpose of a welfare state. It's the common generalisation that it's the norm that disgusts me. Most people living on benefits have a very low quality of life.

What debate we do have is further damaged by the delusion that there is a “leftie” media. The Guardian is frequently cited. That's the Guardian with a circulation less than 10% of that of the Mail, less than 8% of The Sun,and less than 3% of the daily printed media readership. I haven't read it in 10 years, and I can't remember the last time I saw anybody else reading it. Why on earth does anyone think it is in any way influential?

That is in the same deranged zone as the assumption that our prisons, courts, police, and all the rest are in the grip of some more “leftie” control. And in the case of one poster this takes shape in the form of an obsession with equality and diversity within the public sector, which few people who actually work there would recognise. This led in one case to the absurd suggestion that minorities and women would quite happily not pursue equality if they had not been encouraged to by trouble makers. To top it off, a plea was made for meritocracy, blithely unaware that it is the absence of meritocracy that people are agitating about.

I got to the conclusion that anything that doesn't fit the prevailing world view is by definition, “leftie”..and where any media of any sort reports incidents or opinions that don't fit the narrow view must be doing so from some sort of bias. The dismissal of anything that doesn't fit is one symptom of the mania now prevalent here. I will though, give credit for the creativity which some display in suggesting that there is co-ordinated media manipulation, across the world, rather than to accept there are events and opinions they simply don't like; the irony is those same people are themselves completely fooled by the simplest of lies.

Now. Abuse me all you want Make me Twat of the Year. Of no concern to me whatsoever. If you actually want this forum to serve its original purpose, then step forward and say so. If you want it to stay as it is now, a club for fantasists, good bye.

Lou Grant · Post by **Lou Grant** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:31 am

tl:dr

You should just come on here for shits and giggles - debating politics on the internet is a waste of your time and life, imho.

Darkyboy · Post by **Darkyboy** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:01 am

Lou Grant wrote:tl:dr

You should just come on here for shits and giggles - debating politics on the internet is a waste of your time and life, imho.

I thought it was going to be a plea for sensible debate and an admission that we all have the right to express our own opinions.

The excerpts I did read were the usual digs at people who disagree, so gave up. Hillman obviously spent a lot of time on the post and I cannot see the point of doing that.

Post by **Zambo** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:22 am

Hillman, firstly I do not want you to leave the forum, but you need to take a look at yourself as well. Some of the accusations you make you are guilty of yourself. Until people open their minds and realise that they are not the font of all knowledge like Royals does, you will get the irritation and abuse. Moreover, whilst people adopt that position, debate is a complete waste of time as discussion on topics just goes round in circles with no one willing to give an inch.

You started off telling us why you don't think it's worth the bother to post, then launched into opinions on Donald Trump and the BBC amongst others, which just confirmed you are as bad as everyone else you are complaining about in many respects.

I would be looking for a fresh start and just post opinions and ignore those you find irritating and abusive. Just lave their posts to someone else to reply to if it's pissing you off. But I wouldn't be storming off in a huff.

kancutlawns · Post by **kancutlawns** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:24 am

Hillman's part of the issue. Circular arguments which achieve nothing at all. The forum really should be about having a laugh. Should just close down D&D. It serves little purpose and has become dull and staid.

Post by **Zambo** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:27 am

kancutlawns wrote:Hillman's part of the issue. Circular arguments which achieve nothing at all. The forum really should be about having a laugh. Should just close down D&D. It serves little purpose and has become dull and staid.

Personally, I'd be trying to encourage adult and responsible discussion, rather than ditching the section

Petingo · Post by **Petingo** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:35 am

Bravo, Hillman....

A great farewell speech.

The Ghost of Alex Higgins · Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:49 am

Is he leaving forever

Hillman avenger · Post by **Hillman avenger** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:10 pm

As if to make my point, wihtin an hour or so another thread is started by one of the people I had in mind.
It is one of his classic end-of the-world posts, and it quotes an associate of Soros..who we were hearing for months was the evil manipluator in the famous elite.
It suggests if x, then y, we are all in for trouble.
The flaw if thst it is full of assumptions..will le Pen become President? Doesn;t look like it to me. Will Italy leave the euro? Doubt that very much ( if it should have ever been in it is a better question)
But most of all, it appears that nobody in this insightful elite we have here seems to realise that Soros and his like make most of their money from ups and downs, and if they want a down they can create one.By saying stuff like this.
Grow up
Oh and why does all this prediction of doom turn you on so much?

Hillman avenger · Post by **Hillman avenger** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:12 pm

Zambo wrote:Hillman, firstly I do not want you to leave the forum, but you need to take a look at yourself as well. Some of the accusations you make you are guilty of yourself. Until people open their minds and realise that they are not the font of all knowledge like Royals does, you will get the irritation and abuse. Moreover, whilst people adopt that position, debate is a complete waste of time as discussion on topics just goes round in circles with no one willing to give an inch.

You started off telling us why you don't think it's worth the bother to post, then launched into opinions on Donald Trump and the BBC amongst others, which just confirmed you are as bad as everyone else you are complaining about in many respects.

I would be looking for a fresh start and just post opinions and ignore those you find irritating and abusive. Just lave their posts to someone else to reply to if it's pissing you off. But I wouldn't be storming off in a huff.

I don't care if you agree with me about Trump, the BBC or anything else.
What I am pointing out is the complete lack of insight.

paolo · Post by **paolo** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:14 pm

Hillman avenger wrote:As if to make my point, wihtin an hour or so another thread is started by one of the people I had in mind.
It is one of his classic end-of the-world posts, and it quotes an associate of Soros..who we were hearing for months was the evil manipluator in the famous elite.
It suggests if x, then y, we are all in for trouble.
The flaw if thst it is full of assumptions..will le Pen become President? Doesn;t look like it to me. Will Italy leave the euro? Doubt that very much ( if it should have ever been in it is a better question)
But most of all, it appears that nobody in this insightful elite we have here seems to realise that Soros and his like make most of their money from ups and downs, and if they want a down they can create one.By saying stuff like this.
Grow up
Oh and why does all this prediction of doom turn you on so much?

remember our agreement, you daft old soak

an no, although i don't value or have any interest in your opinion, although i welcome you posting it whether i agree with it or not, or whether i simply ignore it, it's your stink shit nastiness that you simply can't hide

and your lies, and trolling

and yes, you noticed that timing, you couldn't resist any longer, your early avoid toty hibernation got to you

as for your war n peace pish, shows you learned fuck all

so....stick to our agreement, as i did, but we both know you can't, you weak willed freak

paolo · Post by **paolo** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:18 pm

You spent a year deliberately abusing and trolling

as an olive branch, and for the good of the forum, and as you do not like me, or my posts, and as my posts irritate you, as does the fact that i refuse to debate with you or answer your questions

i am offering you a fresh non communication truce

we both know you will refuse, as it removes your trolling ability, but if we never posted to, or about each other again it would suit me just fine

from what you have confirmed, you have no reason to worry yourself about me or my conspiracy bullshit, just ignore it

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:23 pm

Hillman avenger wrote: I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion.

Anyone who comes here for debate and discussion must be insane.

Lou Grant · Post by **Lou Grant** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:26 pm

Indeed.

Lou Grant · Post by **Lou Grant** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:27 pm

Seriously Hilman, work out how long you spend arguing on here and consider what else you could do with the time.

The End · Post by **The End** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:11 pm

Anyone who posts something that long on a very low traffic forum is immediately mad.

I obviously stopped reading after two sentences.

rorymac · Post by **rorymac** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:20 pm

Reg wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote: I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion.
Anyone who comes here for debate and discussion must be insane.

for why you say this one ?

Hillman avenger · Post by **Hillman avenger** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:22 pm

Reg wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote: I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion.
Anyone who comes here for debate and discussion must be insane.

I am beginning to think so. Sadly.

Roddy · Post by **Roddy** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:35 pm

Hillman they wait for you to post then descend on you pick to you apart.

phpBB [video]

Is this thread a poly to stop you from getting nominated for T.O.T.Y.

Lou Grant · Post by **Lou Grant** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:36 pm

It's not sad though. If you feel passionately about this issues then go out in your community and do something tangible. Wasting your time on this forum for anything other than light relief is just pointless. You can't change the world or even the minds of a few entrenched middle aged men, by posting here. Surely you can see that?

deisegirl · Post by **deisegirl** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:49 pm

Join in the craic on the TS section Hillman-o. You know it makes (no) sense

kancutlawns · Post by **kancutlawns** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:52 pm

deisegirl wrote:Join in the craic on the TS section Hillman-o. You know it makes (no) sense

Oh God no. He likes Victoria Derbyshire and 5Dead. He used to post there and with the same kind of personality, laid back approach and friendliness as he does in D&D.

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:04 pm

rorymac wrote:
Reg wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote: I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion.
Anyone who comes here for debate and discussion must be insane.
for why you say this one ?

Afternoon, Rorz. Keeping well mate?

The Ghost of Alex Higgins · Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:06 pm

<rorz>

Darkyboy · Post by **Darkyboy** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:19 pm

Reg wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote: I don't know about others but I come on here for what the title of the forum says- debate and discussion.
Anyone who comes here for debate and discussion must be insane.

We may all start with noble intentions, but reality soon takes care of that. If Hillman thought that a self-aggrandising polemic, worthy of the Guardain, was going to change that he must be insane.

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