Multiculturalism - part 3

[m4rkb]

Yes, and the available information points to the fact that this was a territorial brawl based on racial conflict i.e black v white with both sets of yobs piling in. The video apparently showed a black youth getting a right kicking.

So, is that an acceptance that I wasn’t wrong to describe it as “an apparent race war on our streets”?

What was your point for bringing it up btw? Do you put the blame at the door of uncontrolled immigration, failed attempts at multiculturalism or sometbing else?

My ‘point for bringing it up’ is as usual, and in context with the thread I posted it on, that I believe this country’s doctrine of mass immigration & multiculturalism to be a disaster for the ordinary person in this country, and I highlight examples to back up my view whenever I see them.
Also, it is clear that the media plays down racial aspects as much as they can, so it is incumbent upon some of us to try to assist others who for whatever reason, choose not to see what's happening.
You ask the question as though you think I was wrong to bring it up - do you?

Were you holding back on the statement highlighted in bold Roy?

I'm pretty sure the problem extends far beyond the media.

[Roy Twing]

Yes, and the available information points to the fact that this was a territorial brawl based on racial conflict i.e black v white with both sets of yobs piling in. The video apparently showed a black youth getting a right kicking.

So, is that an acceptance that I wasn’t wrong to describe it as “an apparent race war on our streets”?

What was your point for bringing it up btw? Do you put the blame at the door of uncontrolled immigration, failed attempts at multiculturalism or sometbing else?

My ‘point for bringing it up’ is as usual, and in context with the thread I posted it on, that I believe this country’s doctrine of mass immigration & multiculturalism to be a disaster for the ordinary person in this country, and I highlight examples to back up my view whenever I see them.
Also, it is clear that the media plays down racial aspects as much as they can, so it is incumbent upon some of us to try to assist others who for whatever reason, choose not to see what's happening.
You ask the question as though you think I was wrong to bring it up - do you?

Were you holding back on the statement highlighted in bold Roy?

I'm pretty sure the problem extends far beyond the media.

That paragraph was a bit of an afterthought to be honest, but the media is after all the main outlet for the establishment to get its propaganda across.

[Zambo]

Yes, and the available information points to the fact that this was a territorial brawl based on racial conflict i.e black v white with both sets of yobs piling in. The video apparently showed a black youth getting a right kicking.

So, is that an acceptance that I wasn’t wrong to describe it as “an apparent race war on our streets”?

War is a tad strong, and I have no idea if it was purely blacks against whites. Gangs these days seem to be a mix of the two on occasions.

What was your point for bringing it up btw? Do you put the blame at the door of uncontrolled immigration, failed attempts at multiculturalism or sometbing else?

My ‘point for bringing it up’ is as usual, and in context with the thread I posted it on, that I believe this country’s doctrine of mass immigration & multiculturalism to be a disaster for the ordinary person in this country, and I highlight examples to back up my view whenever I see them.
Also, it is clear that the media plays down racial aspects as much as they can, so it is incumbent upon some of us to try to assist others who for whatever reason, choose not to see what's happening.
You ask the question as though you think I was wrong to bring it up - do you?

I share your deep concerns about uncontrolled mass immigration, but it's not just a race or Muslim issue. I am not bothered about where they come from or the colour of their skin, all I'm concerned about is what the sheer numbers have done and are doing to our public services. I'm particularly concerned about what is going to happen to the NHS this winter, because I think it's going to buckle with serious consequences. Other factors are of course involved here though not just immigration.

I don't think you are wrong to bring any issue up you feel strongly about, but to me, you seem obsessed about this particular one, and sometimes I think you are as blinkered as the likes of Hillman

I hope you don't feel too insulted by that

[subsub]

I read in the Sun today

Six words that say so much...

[Steve Hunt]

Yes, and the available information points to the fact that this was a territorial brawl based on racial conflict i.e black v white with both sets of yobs piling in. The video apparently showed a black youth getting a right kicking.

So, is that an acceptance that I wasn’t wrong to describe it as “an apparent race war on our streets”?

War is a tad strong, and I have no idea if it was purely blacks against whites. Gangs these days seem to be a mix of the two on occasions.

What was your point for bringing it up btw? Do you put the blame at the door of uncontrolled immigration, failed attempts at multiculturalism or sometbing else?

My ‘point for bringing it up’ is as usual, and in context with the thread I posted it on, that I believe this country’s doctrine of mass immigration & multiculturalism to be a disaster for the ordinary person in this country, and I highlight examples to back up my view whenever I see them.
Also, it is clear that the media plays down racial aspects as much as they can, so it is incumbent upon some of us to try to assist others who for whatever reason, choose not to see what's happening.
You ask the question as though you think I was wrong to bring it up - do you?

I share your deep concerns about uncontrolled mass immigration, but it's not just a race or Muslim issue. I am not bothered about where they come from or the colour of their skin, all I'm concerned about is what the sheer numbers have done and are doing to our public services. I'm particularly concerned about what is going to happen to the NHS this winter, because I think it's going to buckle with serious consequences. Other factors are of course involved here though not just immigration.

I don't think you are wrong to bring any issue up you feel strongly about, but to me, you seem obsessed about this particular one, and sometimes I think you are as blinkered as the likes of Hillman

I hope you don't feel too insulted by that

Zambo - are you therefore saying that multiculturalism has been a success in the UK?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Roy believes that the "multicultural experiment" has badly failed. I agree with him.
The intentions may have been well meaning (I actually think they were, along with being seen as economically necessary), but in practice it has been a complete disaster.

Multicultural policies accept as a given that societies are diverse, yet they implicitly assume that such diversity ends at the edges of minority communities. They seek to institutionalise diversity by putting people into ethnic and cultural boxes – into a singular, homogeneous Muslim community, for example – and defining their needs and rights accordingly. Such policies, in other words, have helped create the very divisions they were meant to manage.

The very foundations of multiculturalism – mass migration, ghettoisation, and excuse-making for unseemly events – have sadly proven to be deeply flawed. The end result has been various communities failing to integrate with broader society, thus creating the divided country we now live in. In August 2014 the BBC (yes, the BBC!) conducted an online poll asking if multiculturalism in Britain had been a failure or success. 95 per cent of respondents thought it had been a failure.

Sadly, the end result of the multicultural experiment has been a disastrously divided nation, imo.

[Zambo]

Fucking hell Steve, don't you start, we have enough one eyed and piss poor at interpretation posters on here with the likes of Roy and Hillman. I've never said, suggested, or even hinted that multiculturalism has been a success. I said that I shared his concern about mass immigration and I didn't mention the big M words, but I also don't think that integration has worked. You only have to look around at our cities to see that large suburbs have been taken over by groups of people not born in this country and/or their offsprings.

The discussion in this part of the thread was kicked off following the brawl (not war) in SE London the other day. 'Race War' is just inflammatory unnecessary bollocks imo, it was a turf dispute, and it will go on because of the policies of governments since the 50's. It's pointless though keeping harping on about it every times something like this happens. We have to hope that one day the powers that be wake up.

[kancutlawns]

It's a glass half empty philosophy Steve. Many towns and cities where communities do get on well together and the 2011 riots where different religions and ethnicities collaborated to get rid of the scumbag element is an example. Obviously it doesn't make the headlines as say drug wars in North London between the Kurds and Turks but to say it is a disastrous failure is a bit of an overreaction.

I could give examples in my own city where it's been successful.

[The Tick]

Multiculturalism exists everywhere and always has, to varying degrees. Far longer than the concept of nation-states.

While a common societal consensus in any nation is desirable, it does need to be flexible. Not to the point of accepting anything/everything that is otherwise unpalatable to most. But accommodating of the fact that we as people do have different perspectives on life.

[kancutlawns]

Fucking hell Steve, don't you start, we have enough one eyed and piss poor at interpretation posters on here with the likes of Roy and Hillman. I've never said, suggested, or even hinted that multiculturalism has been a success. I said that I shared his concern about mass immigration and I didn't mention the big M words, but I also don't think that integration has worked. You only have to look around at our cities to see that large suburbs have been taken over by groups of people not born in this country and/or their offsprings.

The discussion in this part of the thread was kicked off following the brawl (not war) in SE London the other day. 'Race War' is just inflammatory unnecessary bollocks imo, it was a turf dispute, and it will go on because of the policies of governments since the 50's. It's pointless though keeping harping on about it every times something like this happens. We have to hope that one day the powers that be wake up.

That's the thing Zamb, the general philosophy in this place is to go completely overboard and to exaggerate problems about the social problems and link it all to the evils of multiculturalism, left wing councils, liberalism and Muslims. It's a lazy, catch all argument that negates any sort of lateral thinking. Not saying there aren't problems but Steve seems to be citing the issues that others here are entrenched in and there's no room for give and take.

[Zambo]

We rarely see the mention of the good to come out of immigration. An Asian doctor saved Mrs Z's eye in a very tricky operation a few years back. Many add value to this country. It's the sheer numbers that is the problem

[Steve Hunt]

Not saying there aren't problems but Steve seems to be citing the issues that others here are entrenched in and there's no room for give and take.

I don't rejoice in the fact that it has failed, Lawnsy.

Life in this country would be infinitely better had it been a success. As I said earlier, the intentions were good and honourable. But when implemented, the policy has only created a significantly more divided nation.

[Roy Twing]

We rarely see the mention of the good to come out of immigration. An Asian doctor saved Mrs Z's eye in a very tricky operation a few years back. Many add value to this country. It's the sheer numbers that is the problem

??
All we ever 'see' in the media is an emphasis on the 'good' arising from immigration - every talking head on every occasion when immigration is the topic, starts by saying that immigration is 'a good thing'.
No-one has ever argued the need for managed migration - that is a given, - it is the bile that is spewed by certain people when the negative side to mass immigration is mentioned that has long been the obstacle to any kind of sensible dialogue.

[Zambo]

We rarely see the mention of the good to come out of immigration. An Asian doctor saved Mrs Z's eye in a very tricky operation a few years back. Many add value to this country. It's the sheer numbers that is the problem

??
All we ever 'see' in the media is an emphasis on the 'good' arising from immigration - every talking head on every occasion when immigration is the topic, starts by saying that immigration is 'a good thing'.
No-one has ever argued the need for managed migration - that is a given, - it is the bile that is spewed by certain people when the negative side to mass immigration is mentioned that has long been the obstacle to any kind of sensible dialogue.

I'm not talking about the media Roy, I'm talking about you. Do you admit there have been some benefits?

[Roy Twing]

We rarely see the mention of the good to come out of immigration. An Asian doctor saved Mrs Z's eye in a very tricky operation a few years back. Many add value to this country. It's the sheer numbers that is the problem

??
All we ever 'see' in the media is an emphasis on the 'good' arising from immigration - every talking head on every occasion when immigration is the topic, starts by saying that immigration is 'a good thing'.
No-one has ever argued the need for managed migration - that is a given, - it is the bile that is spewed by certain people when the negative side to mass immigration is mentioned that has long been the obstacle to any kind of sensible dialogue.

I'm not talking about the media Roy, I'm talking about you. Do you admit there have been some benefits?

Of course there are benefits – every skilled worker is a potential benefit, and very welcome at that.
What you have to appreciate though, is that in a sovereign country, every single immigrant should be a benefit to the host,- why would a host nation take in an immigrant otherwise? (genuine refugees excluded of course) and I don’t think many, including yourself, appreciate or agree with that.
No newly arrived migrant should ever receive any state benefits – that this country does do so on a huge scale is utter lunacy.
What has been shown over the years, is that mass immigration has barely broken even in terms of economic benefits (and that is given the huge spoonful of fudge applied by the establishment to arrive at that break even result) and also does not take into account the massive disadvantages within the west’s most densely populated country.
So I would take umbrage at your suggestion that I should admit there are benefits to immigration – I will happily do so when the establishment and some one here (avoiding my usual descriptions in the spirit of the current politeness sweeping the forum) admit that there are massive disadvantages which far outweigh the benefits.

[Zambo]

We rarely see the mention of the good to come out of immigration. An Asian doctor saved Mrs Z's eye in a very tricky operation a few years back. Many add value to this country. It's the sheer numbers that is the problem

??
All we ever 'see' in the media is an emphasis on the 'good' arising from immigration - every talking head on every occasion when immigration is the topic, starts by saying that immigration is 'a good thing'.
No-one has ever argued the need for managed migration - that is a given, - it is the bile that is spewed by certain people when the negative side to mass immigration is mentioned that has long been the obstacle to any kind of sensible dialogue.

I'm not talking about the media Roy, I'm talking about you. Do you admit there have been some benefits?

Of course there are benefits – every skilled worker is a potential benefit, and very welcome at that.
What you have to appreciate though, is that in a sovereign country, every single immigrant should be a benefit to the host,- why would a host nation take in an immigrant otherwise? (genuine refugees excluded of course) and I don’t think many, including yourself, appreciate or agree with that.
No newly arrived migrant should ever receive any state benefits – that this country does do so on a huge scale is utter lunacy.
What has been shown over the years, is that mass immigration has barely broken even in terms of economic benefits (and that is given the huge spoonful of fudge applied by the establishment to arrive at that break even result) and also does not take into account the massive disadvantages within the west’s most densely populated country.
So I would take umbrage at your suggestion that I should admit there are benefits to immigration – I will happily do so when the establishment and some one here (avoiding my usual descriptions in the spirit of the current politeness sweeping the forum) admit that there are massive disadvantages which far outweigh the benefits.

That's good news, but you say that you wouldn't admit it unless others admitted disadvantages, and that is why we have the tedious circular debates on here. If people would admit that there are two sides to most situations it would be a happier section.

I agree with your post in it's entirety apart from that bit.

[Hillman avenger]

Multiculturalism and immigration are not the same thing.

I have always been in favour of controlled immigration from outside the EU, and accept that free access for EU membership is a price worth paying.

if we stopped or greatly reduced immigration that would not solve the problems of multiculturalism.

The multiculturalism issue concerns how the various communities live peacefully and constructively together.

[Zambo]

Multiculturalism and immigration are not the same thing.

I have always been in favour of controlled immigration from outside the EU, and accept that free access for EU membership is a price worth paying.

if we stopped or greatly reduced immigration that would not solve the problems of multiculturalism.

The multiculturalism issue concerns how the various communities live peacefully and constructively together.

Multiculturalism will never work in this country, people are too set in their ways, like they are on this forum. Not many are prepared to give an inch.

Roy never says, until today, that there are benefits in immigration, and you lot will never say that you condemn Muslim atrocities although you do, and Roy and that gang thinks you support it because you never condemn it.

It could all be so different.

[m4rkb]

I think the head in the sand brigade's denial is the problem here and they cannot have the debate without universally calling the rest of us racist.

I've admitted endlessly that I have nothing against most immigrants bar the ridiculous numbers. I also freely admit that I do have something against those who are virtually unemployable and not fit for anything other than a life on benefits. You see this manifest itself in a few ways. General attitude or dressing like some Bedouin from the desert when applying for jobs.

I wish we could get rid of some of our own useless indigenous layabouts and swap them for some of those hard working people from abroad , preferably the anglosphere to guarantee compatibility but that really is a pipe dream.

[Hillman avenger]

I have repeatedly attacked terrorist attacks, whoever creates them.

This tactic of attributing thoughts and comments to people which they have never had is tiresome and 100% ineffective.

If multiculturalism is never going to work, how will we run a society with several million "minorities" in it? They are here. It is a reality.

Wouldn't it help to start from where we are, rather than where you might wish to be?

[m4rkb]

I have repeatedly attacked terrorist attacks, whoever creates them.

This tactic of attributing thoughts and comments to people which they have never had is tiresome and 100% ineffective.

If multiculturalism is never going to work, how will we run a society with several million "minorities" in it? They are here. It is a reality.

Wouldn't it help to start from where we are, rather than where you might wish to be?

Fair enough but that's no excuse for the tripe you've spouted on here in defence of muslim rape gangs. Asians, kebab shops and taxi ranks. Anything other than the bleedin obvious which is staring everyone else in the face.

[Sid Pervcat]

Where has Hillman ever defended rape gangs???

[m4rkb]

By making every excuse possible to deny the identity of the culprits.

[Zambo]

If multiculturalism is never going to work, how will we run a society with several million "minorities" in it? They are here. It is a reality.

It's never going to work, because the current inhabitants of this country have no interest in making it work. That is why they live segregated. Furthermore, the vast majority of immigrants in this country do not wish to integrate, they are quite happy living as closeas possible to the life they had in the country they came from

[Roy Twing]

I have repeatedly attacked terrorist attacks, whoever creates them.

Have you attacked MUSLIM terrorist attacks Hillman?
Or MUSLIM on-street grooming gangs, Hillman?

[Sid Pervcat]

I think the head in the sand brigade's denial is the problem here and they cannot have the debate without universally calling the rest of us racist.............

...........You see this manifest itself in a few ways. General attitude or dressing like some Bedouin from the desert when applying for jobs.

You're not racist though, right?