Multiculturalism - part 3

[The Tick]

Of course it is starting, the world is a shrinking place as the cliche goes.
But Japan is moving at what is probably the natural rate, not the artificially engineered rate inflicted upon much of the rest of the industrialised world.
'Enlightened' - this country?

No such thing as the natural rate.

Japan's xenophobic and rabidly nationalistic instincts have been harder to crack (not least because they were never subjected by American occupation to anything as thorough as the de-nazification of Germany).

But with an ageing population and uneasy economy, Japan can ill afford to rely on racial inertia for prosperity.

Missed this one until now.
There is a natural rate, and it had worked fairly well until the last couple of decades.
That you think maintaining control of national borders, and only enabling those who can benefit the nation to enter, is xenophobic, says much about you.
Japan is, and will remain, in the top 3 largest economies of the world, and unlike the UK, actually prospers because of genuine productivity, and not the dangerously false and short sighted 'house of straw' method of a vastly growing population to increase GDP.

There is no such thing as a natural rate of immigration. Certainly no scientist has discovered one.

Japan, as already mentioned by Rotary Club, is in no perfect shape economically. It will have serious questions to address regarding its weakened standing and its own demographic problems of low birth rates and a rise in the elderly population. Their 'genuine prosperity' can not sustain with a shrinking workforce and tax base, and a rising pensions overload.

[the rotary club]

Japan has a deficit, Japans has an enormous national debt and this 'prosperity' is because there are no immigrants to speak of.

Interesting.

I was responding to a post that suggested mass immigration is the only way forward, and that control of one's borders is 'xenophobic'.
The UK has a massive deficit; the USA has a massive deficit, - what's your point?

Countries with markedly different immigration practices seem to have remarkably similar deficits / debts / prosperity.

I know this will be difficult for you but just perhaps it's nothing to do with immigration.

[Roy Twing]

Of course it is starting, the world is a shrinking place as the cliche goes.
But Japan is moving at what is probably the natural rate, not the artificially engineered rate inflicted upon much of the rest of the industrialised world.
'Enlightened' - this country?

No such thing as the natural rate.

Japan's xenophobic and rabidly nationalistic instincts have been harder to crack (not least because they were never subjected by American occupation to anything as thorough as the de-nazification of Germany).

But with an ageing population and uneasy economy, Japan can ill afford to rely on racial inertia for prosperity.

Missed this one until now.
There is a natural rate, and it had worked fairly well until the last couple of decades.
That you think maintaining control of national borders, and only enabling those who can benefit the nation to enter, is xenophobic, says much about you.
Japan is, and will remain, in the top 3 largest economies of the world, and unlike the UK, actually prospers because of genuine productivity, and not the dangerously false and short sighted 'house of straw' method of a vastly growing population to increase GDP.

There is no such thing as a natural rate of immigration. Certainly no scientist has discovered one.

Japan, as already mentioned by Rotary Club, is in no perfect shape economically. It will have serious questions to address regarding its weakened standing and its own demographic problems of low birth rates and a rise in the elderly population. Their 'genuine prosperity' can not sustain with a shrinking workforce and tax base, and a rising pensions overload.

I have given you my definition of a natural rate.
It was you who brought up Japan's 'xenophobia', - I was merely merely stating that they are doing pretty well by most comparisons (ie, no major industrialised country save China is doing 'great') and remains consistently the 3rd largest economy.
Mass immigration is at best, a short term fix, and Japan is in a much better position, with 'genuine prosperity' than the likes of the UK, for the reasons given.

[The Tick]

Just because you have dreamt up a 'natural rate', that does not mean one exists.

My point was that Japan's more homogenised society was not something to hold as a model as it masks many economic problems, and that it is no proof that less immigration is a guarantor of 'genuine prosperity'.

[m4rkb]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it? You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

[The Tick]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it? You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

The point is that Japan's lack of multiculturalism is no guarantor of economic prosperity.

The UK has a ridiculous property bubble which will bite us. Spain suffered because of it's own bubble. Both countries are multicultural.

Arguing that a reduction in immigration will benefit our economy is false, which is the point I've made from the beginning.

Roy portrayed Japan as an economic model owing to its lack of multiculturalism. which has turned out to be nonsense.

[m4rkb]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it? You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

The point is that Japan's lack of multiculturalism is no guarantor of economic prosperity.

The UK has a ridiculous property bubble which will bite us. Spain suffered because of it's own bubble. Both countries are multicultural.

Arguing that a reduction in immigration will benefit our economy is false, which is the point I've made from the beginning.

Roy portrayed Japan as an economic model owing to its lack of multiculturalism. which has turned out to be nonsense.

If I'm not mistaken there is absolutely no one on this board , not me , not roy or anyone else advocating no immigration at all. Again this is the line you simply have to take because to pretend otherwise renders your whole argument void and you might just have to concede to your enemies on here.

The issue is not foreigners per se, It's the lack of thinking and common sense behind an unfettered immigration system where anyone and everyone can come here regardless of what they have to offer.

What level of immigration is too much for you? There must be a limit ,if so tell us. (But you won't)
If there were ever a food or water shortage, what do you think the social consequences of overpopulation would be?
Do you welcome an ever burgeoning dole queue as a consequence of mass immigration?

[the rotary club]

This section called debate and discussion not question and answer.

The FACT you lot can't actually frame an argument without repeatedly resorting to these tedious tactics is very telling.

[The Tick]

If I'm not mistaken there is absolutely no one on this board , not me , not roy or anyone else advocating no immigration at all. Again this is the line you simply have to take because to pretend otherwise renders your whole argument void and you might just have to concede to your enemies on here.

The issue is not foreigners per se, It's the lack of thinking and common sense behind an unfettered immigration system where anyone and everyone can come here regardless of what they have to offer.

What level of immigration is too much for you? There must be a limit ,if so tell us. (But you won't)
If there were ever a food or water shortage, what do you think the social consequences of overpopulation would be?
Do you welcome an ever burgeoning dole queue as a consequence of mass immigration?

You and others have consistently made attacks on immigration, immigrants and multiculturalism on a trigger happy basis.

There won't be overpopulation. And if there are swelling dole queues, it's because of the unstable and uneven jobs market in the UK enabled by government action and business practices. Not because of immigration.

[Roy Twing]

If I'm not mistaken there is absolutely no one on this board , not me , not roy or anyone else advocating no immigration at all. Again this is the line you simply have to take because to pretend otherwise renders your whole argument void and you might just have to concede to your enemies on here.

The issue is not foreigners per se, It's the lack of thinking and common sense behind an unfettered immigration system where anyone and everyone can come here regardless of what they have to offer.

What level of immigration is too much for you? There must be a limit ,if so tell us. (But you won't)
If there were ever a food or water shortage, what do you think the social consequences of overpopulation would be?
Do you welcome an ever burgeoning dole queue as a consequence of mass immigration?

You and others have consistently made attacks on immigration, immigrants and multiculturalism on a trigger happy basis.

There won't be overpopulation. And if there are swelling dole queues, it's because of the unstable and uneven jobs market in the UK enabled by government action and business practices. Not because of immigration.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if and when I criticise specific groups, it is not 'trigger happy', - it is backed up with reports, statistics etc. you and yours may not like those statistics and reports, and try to ridicule them, but they are not 'trigger happy' for the sake of it.
It is you and yours that use trigger happy tactics in trying to tar those of us expressing such concerns as racists (as per your post here).
To say that there 'won't be overpopulation' is laughable, - some would argue that the globe is already vastly overpopulated, and given that this island is one of the most densely inhabited anywhere, I really do wonder about your mindset.

[AlcoholBrazil]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it? You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

I hear Gordon Brown was a big admirer of that philosophy.

[The Tick]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if and when I criticise specific groups, it is not 'trigger happy', - it is backed up with reports, statistics etc. you and yours may not like those statistics and reports, and try to ridicule them, but they are not 'trigger happy' for the sake of it.
It is you and yours that use trigger happy tactics in trying to tar those of us expressing such concerns as racists (as per your post here).
To say that there 'won't be overpopulation' is laughable, - some would argue that the globe is already vastly overpopulated, and given that this island is one of the most densely inhabited anywhere, I really do wonder about your mindset.

Your criticisms of specific groups are laden with prejudice, ulterior motives and spurious data and sources. It has been clear to me since I first read your posts here.

We are not reaching overpopulation in Europe. From Scotland to Sicily to Russia we are actually suffering alarmingly low birth rates and an increase in the proportion of populations that are elderly. A shrinking workforce.

It is only the major (Western) European states that are avoiding a catastrophe by having immigrants arrive to arrest this human deficit and help keep our economy and public services running. Countries in the East and South of the continent are facing serious problems with depopulation.

As for Britain, the population is not evenly spread. In London and the South East there is higher density thanks to both domestic and foreign migration whereas Scotland, the North of England and South West England suffer depopulation (which results in abandoned homes and businesses closing down). Even the Republic of Ireland is once again suffering the effects of outward migration.

It's the unequal distribution of resources which kills millions, not overpopulation.

[Hillman avenger]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it?

No it wouldn't.
You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

[m4rkb]

Japan's demise wouldn't have anything to do with their ridiculous property bubble would it?

No it wouldn't.
You know, the one where they simply valued everything on the market any price they liked because it created 'prosperity' even though everyone knew it was a farce.

Well that's put this one to bed then hasn't it. You saying it doesn't.

[Hillman avenger]

Be honest.
If I'd gone into the whole thing you'd have been equally dismissive.
Japan has tried for decades to protect its own industries and to resist foreign influences. It has ended up unable to compete and with a real problem in its demographics.
An example- their laws re vehicles in later life- effectively forcing people to replace their cars, and making imports so difficult it was delivering a steady market to its own manufacturers. Being able to count on that, Honda and the rest could subsidise starting up in foreign markets.
The Eastern bloc and Korea have eaten their lunch.
The property prices were a result, not a cause, of the problem.

[Roy Twing]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if and when I criticise specific groups, it is not 'trigger happy', - it is backed up with reports, statistics etc. you and yours may not like those statistics and reports, and try to ridicule them, but they are not 'trigger happy' for the sake of it.
It is you and yours that use trigger happy tactics in trying to tar those of us expressing such concerns as racists (as per your post here).
To say that there 'won't be overpopulation' is laughable, - some would argue that the globe is already vastly overpopulated, and given that this island is one of the most densely inhabited anywhere, I really do wonder about your mindset.

Your criticisms of specific groups are laden with prejudice, ulterior motives and spurious data and sources. It has been clear to me since I first read your posts here.

Your comments are laden with stupidity, naivety, and head in the sand blindness. It has been clear to me since I first read your posts here.
I do not have to give you any proof to back up my claims, it seems.

We are not reaching overpopulation in Europe. From Scotland to Sicily to Russia we are actually suffering alarmingly low birth rates and an increase in the proportion of populations that are elderly. A shrinking workforce.

It is only the major (Western) European states that are avoiding a catastrophe by having immigrants arrive to arrest this human deficit and help keep our economy and public services running. Countries in the East and South of the continent are facing serious problems with depopulation.

As for Britain, the population is not evenly spread. In London and the South East there is higher density thanks to both domestic and foreign migration whereas Scotland, the North of England and South West England suffer depopulation (which results in abandoned homes and businesses closing down). Even the Republic of Ireland is once again suffering the effects of outward migration.

It's the unequal distribution of resources which kills millions, not overpopulation.

You do realise that it is only technology keeping one step ahead of the rapidly increasing global population growth that prevents further widespread famine?
Why is population stability/slight decrease a bad thing tick? Think about it. For once.

[Roy Twing]

Be honest.
If I'd gone into the whole thing you'd have been equally dismissive.
Japan has tried for decades to protect its own industries and to resist foreign influences. It has ended up unable to compete and with a real problem in its demographics.
An example- their laws re vehicles in later life- effectively forcing people to replace their cars, and making imports so difficult it was delivering a steady market to its own manufacturers. Being able to count on that, Honda and the rest could subsidise starting up in foreign markets.
The Eastern bloc and Korea have eaten their lunch.
The property prices were a result, not a cause, of the problem.

Despite the best efforts of nature horatio, - Japan remains the third largest economy in the world.
Because of its social stability.
It must really eat your lot up to acknowledge that fact.

[m4rkb]

^^
Exactly. No one considers the consequences of the finely balanced system breaking down for whatever reason. We only need a simple power cut to spark a riot, warnings of fuel shortages to create chaos at the pumps or any other self fulfilling prophecy to create any other type of pandemonium.

[the rotary club]

Be honest.
If I'd gone into the whole thing you'd have been equally dismissive.
Japan has tried for decades to protect its own industries and to resist foreign influences. It has ended up unable to compete and with a real problem in its demographics.
An example- their laws re vehicles in later life- effectively forcing people to replace their cars, and making imports so difficult it was delivering a steady market to its own manufacturers. Being able to count on that, Honda and the rest could subsidise starting up in foreign markets.
The Eastern bloc and Korea have eaten their lunch.
The property prices were a result, not a cause, of the problem.

Despite the best efforts of nature horatio, - Japan remains the third largest economy in the world.
Because of its social stability.
It must really eat your lot up to acknowledge that fact.

Bollocks.

Japan is 26th in the list of GDP / capita below the UK.

[Hillman avenger]

Roy has failed to spot the last 20 years.

Japan's economic model couldn't deal with globalisation. In fact it should be a lesson for those who think that shutting the door on the world outside is a viable strategy.

[m4rkb]

Roy has failed to spot the last 20 years.

Japan's economic model couldn't deal with globalisation. In fact it should be a lesson for those who think that shutting the door on the world outside is a viable strategy.

Are you advocating trade here or the wholesale import of masses of immigrants to rectify Japans woes?

[The Tick]

Your comments are laden with stupidity, naivety, and head in the sand blindness. It has been clear to me since I first read your posts here.
I do not have to give you any proof to back up my claims, it seems.




You do realise that it is only technology keeping one step ahead of the rapidly increasing global population growth that prevents further widespread famine?
Why is population stability/slight decrease a bad thing tick? Think about it. For once.

My views are based on rational thought and seeing the bigger picture.


There are only a handful of nations with genuine concerns regarding overpopulation. None are in Europe. Population stability in Europe is no bad thing but it is under threat from a declining population, not the reverse.

[The Tick]

Be honest.
If I'd gone into the whole thing you'd have been equally dismissive.
Japan has tried for decades to protect its own industries and to resist foreign influences. It has ended up unable to compete and with a real problem in its demographics.
An example- their laws re vehicles in later life- effectively forcing people to replace their cars, and making imports so difficult it was delivering a steady market to its own manufacturers. Being able to count on that, Honda and the rest could subsidise starting up in foreign markets.
The Eastern bloc and Korea have eaten their lunch.
The property prices were a result, not a cause, of the problem.

Despite the best efforts of nature horatio, - Japan remains the third largest economy in the world.
Because of its social stability.
It must really eat your lot up to acknowledge that fact.

USA are first. Germany fourth, UK fifth, France Sixth, India seventh, Brazil eighth, Italy ninth, and Canada Tenth.

So the majority of the top 10 economies in the world belong to nations that are multicultural.

That'll do for me.

[Zambo]

Well I'm concerned for my village. They are building 3000 houses on the edge of it, which means at least another 7000 people, and another 3500/4000 vehicles, without having the infrastructure to cope. It's not just here either. There may not be a serious over-population for the UK at the moment, but it's coming. School places, insufficient GP surgeries/doctors, crowded A&E's, aging population, net migration/immigration. It all adds up, and the pressure is on all public services.

If you are going to manage the type of population increase that we have seen since 2010, we should have been planning the infrastructure a decade ago, but that is the general problem with most of the public sector they are always is re-act mode after the event, and would need to look up pro-active to find out what it means.

[theleader82]

People obviously don't embrace multiculturalism. That's why there has been massive white flight from places like Birmingham , London and Manchester. The police have to spend a fortune using translators due to the high number of foreign criminals. We can't deport foreign rapists and murderers due to human rights laws.