Labour; Have They Fallen Into A Conservative Trap?

[Ralph]

They would be permanently in charge of English only legislation with a minority of the votes in England.

..................but still, presumably voted for by more people in England than any other party?

Yes, but the majority who didn't vote for the government would be permanently disifranchised. And it would be over 60% of the population.

[colinthewarriormonkey]

Labour are going to be obliterated in May 2015 in Scotland.

The SNP will win the majority of the seats. The fight for Independence goes on and I truly believe we will have it in 5 years now. There is so much anger in Scotland at present...anger at Labour, anger at their half cocked ill thought out devo-max promise of nothing of substance at all, anger at the MSM and their lies..anger at the BBC bias...etc etc

Tonight the SNP have overtaken the Lib Dems as the party with the 3rd most members in the UK...yes in the UK !!

18,000 have joined the SNP since Friday.....membership now above 43,000 and growing every minute. I for one will be doing more come May...many others are getting involved in politics...lets rid Scotland of the red, blue and yellow tories, the OO and the UKIP jokers...such a parcel of rogues

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/20 ... over-42000

You also Said Scotland will be independent.

Only 4 out of 32 areas voted Yes.

[Steve Hunt]

They would be permanently in charge of English only legislation with a minority of the votes in England.

..................but still, presumably voted for by more people in England than any other party?

Yes, but the majority who didn't vote for the government would be permanently disifranchised. And it would likely be over 60% of the population.

But that's how it normally is anyway, Ralph.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... rP38pptk7A

The only difference would be that English only legislation would be determined by the most popular party in England.

Now, you know my views on Cameron. I'm not saying that it is ideal (far from it), but given the FPTP system, it would at least be fairer than Scottish MP's voting (& possibly having the deciding vote) on English only affairs.

[the rotary club]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

Yes, that seems to be Ralph's stance.

I can see where he is coming from. The prospect of a permanent Tory government (given how pathetic they have become) is not an appealing one.

However, with the inevitable collapse of the LibDems & the rise of UKIP, I'm not sure that Ralph's nightmare scenario would necessarily come to fruition.

Shirley this kind of petty nationalistic nonsense is likely to persuade Ukippers to back Dave.

Labour isn't really Dave's target here - he's trying to keep his unruly backbenches quiet and appeal to the likely Ukip voters fucking him up in the marginals.

[the rotary club]

They would be permanently in charge of English only legislation with a minority of the votes in England.

..................but still, presumably voted for by more people in England than any other party?

Yes, but the majority who didn't vote for the government would be permanently disifranchised. And it would likely be over 60% of the population.

But that's how it normally is anyway, Ralph.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... rP38pptk7A

The only difference would be that English only legislation would be determined by the most popular party in England.

Now, you know my views on Cameron. I'm not saying that it is ideal (far from it), but given the FPTP system, it would at least be fairer than Scottish MP's voting (& possibly having the deciding vote) on English only affairs.

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

[Steve Hunt]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

Yes, that seems to be Ralph's stance.

I can see where he is coming from. The prospect of a permanent Tory government (given how pathetic they have become) is not an appealing one.

However, with the inevitable collapse of the LibDems & the rise of UKIP, I'm not sure that Ralph's nightmare scenario would necessarily come to fruition.

Shirley this kind of petty nationalistic nonsense is likely to persuade Ukippers to back Dave.

Labour isn't really Dave's target here - he's trying to keep his unruly backbenches quiet and appeal to the likely Ukip voters fucking him up in the marginals.

I think Labour is most certainly Dave's target here, rotary.

If his plans come to fruition, he won't have to worry too much about UKIP, even if they do win a few seats in Westminster. He will have dealt a massive blow to the Tories biggest rivals & only serious threat.

I despise him, but I have to (begrudgingly) admit that he is playing a blinder here.

[Steve Hunt]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

[the rotary club]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

Yes, that seems to be Ralph's stance.

I can see where he is coming from. The prospect of a permanent Tory government (given how pathetic they have become) is not an appealing one.

However, with the inevitable collapse of the LibDems & the rise of UKIP, I'm not sure that Ralph's nightmare scenario would necessarily come to fruition.

Shirley this kind of petty nationalistic nonsense is likely to persuade Ukippers to back Dave.

Labour isn't really Dave's target here - he's trying to keep his unruly backbenches quiet and appeal to the likely Ukip voters fucking him up in the marginals.

I think Labour is most certainly Dave's target here, rotary.

If his plans come to fruition, he won't have to worry too much about UKIP, even if they do win a few seats in Westminster. He will have dealt a massive blow to the Tories biggest rivals & only serious threat.

I despise him, but I have to (begrudgingly) admit that he is playing a blinder here.

On the other hand the importance of the Scottish MPs to a Labour majority is overstated - even if you omit them it would only have affected four of the general election results since the first world war.

https://fullfact.org/scotland/permanent ... ence-35134

[Ralph]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

Yes, that seems to be Ralph's stance.

I can see where he is coming from. The prospect of a permanent Tory government (given how pathetic they have become) is not an appealing one.

However, with the inevitable collapse of the LibDems & the rise of UKIP, I'm not sure that Ralph's nightmare scenario would necessarily come to fruition.

Shirley this kind of petty nationalistic nonsense is likely to persuade Ukippers to back Dave.

Labour isn't really Dave's target here - he's trying to keep his unruly backbenches quiet and appeal to the likely Ukip voters fucking him up in the marginals.

I think Labour is most certainly Dave's target here, rotary.

If his plans come to fruition, he won't have to worry too much about UKIP, even if they do win a few seats in Westminster. He will have dealt a massive blow to the Tories biggest rivals & only serious threat.

I despise him, but I have to (begrudgingly) admit that he is playing a blinder here.

Why would a future Labour government keep Dave Cameron's back of a fag packet constitutional changes when they're so obviously designed to keep the Tories in power in England, forever.

[the rotary club]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

If there is radical change for the Jocks in terms of more devolution why not for England as well, that would be 'fair'.

The right egged on by the compliant media only have Labour bashing as a policy rather than anything radical to add for England. I bet Thatcher is turning in her grave.

[Steve Hunt]

On the other hand the importance of the Scottish MPs to a Labour majority is overstated - even if you omit them it would only have affected four of the general election results since the first world war.

https://fullfact.org/scotland/permanent ... ence-35134

I agree. I think Ralph is worrying a bit too much.

[Steve Hunt]

Why would a future Labour government keep Dave Cameron's back of a fag packet constitutional changes when they're so obviously designed to keep the Tories in power in England, forever.

Ralph, you are letting this get to you.

For the thousandth time (& as rotary has pointed up above), your doomsday scenario is not true.

[Ralph]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

If there is radical change for the Jocks in terms of more devolution why not for England as well, that would be 'fair'.

The right egged on by the compliant media only have Labour bashing as a policy rather than anything radical to add for England. I bet Thatcher is turning in her grave.

Spot on.

We need devolution to the regions of England, or failing that, an English Parliament with a proportional voting system. That would be fair.

[Ralph]

Why would a future Labour government keep Dave Cameron's back of a fag packet constitutional changes when they're so obviously designed to keep the Tories in power in England, forever.

Ralph, you are letting this get to you.

For the thousandth time (& as rotary has pointed up above), your doomsday scenario is not true.

It's not just Scottish MPs, it's Northern Irish & Welsh as well. A 'yes' vote wouldn't have mean't permenant Tory rule in England - agreed. What Cameron is proposing would.

[Steve Hunt]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

If there is radical change for the Jocks in terms of more devolution why not for England as well, that would be 'fair'.

The right egged on by the compliant media only have Labour bashing as a policy rather than anything radical to add for England. I bet Thatcher is turning in her grave.

tbf, all you lefties thought she wasn't interested in anything North of Watford, rotary. So I can't see it bothering her too much

But seriously, the West Lothian question should have been resolved years ago.
It is ironic that it has taken the referendum for it to become a major issue.

Everyone is plotting, panicking, scheming and running about like headless chickens. What makes it more enjoyable is that the election is now only months away - hence the frenzied confusion.

I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

[Steve Hunt]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

If there is radical change for the Jocks in terms of more devolution why not for England as well, that would be 'fair'.

The right egged on by the compliant media only have Labour bashing as a policy rather than anything radical to add for England. I bet Thatcher is turning in her grave.

Spot on.

We need devolution to the regions of England, or failing that, an English Parliament with a proportional voting system. That would be fair.

Great idea

More and more layers of bureaucracy - all funded by the taxpayer.

The good people of the North East rejected all this crap.

No, parliament should remain as it is. Just close it to non-English MP's when English-only legislation is being debated.

[Ralph]

That's just re arranging the deckchairs on the sinking and increasingly irrelevant Westminster ship.

Bloody hell, rotary

I agree with you

If there is radical change for the Jocks in terms of more devolution why not for England as well, that would be 'fair'.

The right egged on by the compliant media only have Labour bashing as a policy rather than anything radical to add for England. I bet Thatcher is turning in her grave.

Spot on.

We need devolution to the regions of England, or failing that, an English Parliament with a proportional voting system. That would be fair.

Great idea

More and more layers of bureaucracy - all funded by the taxpayer.

The good people of the North East rejected all this crap.

No, parliament should remain as it is. Just close it to non-English MP's when English-only legislation is being debated.

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

[Steve Hunt]

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

Say you do this, Ralph.

Would you still preclude Scottish MP's voting on English-only matters in the Commons?

[Ralph]

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

Say you do this, Ralph.

Would you still preclude Scottish MP's voting on English-only matters in the Commons?

English matters would be dealt with by the English parliament. The House of Commons would only deal with UK matters - foreign policy etc.

[Steve Hunt]

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

Say you do this, Ralph.

Would you still preclude Scottish MP's voting on English-only matters in the Commons?

English matters would be dealt with by the English parliament. The House of Commons would only deal with UK matters - foreign policy etc.

I see. So would the English parliament have tax raising powers?

[the rotary club]

Lol @ major issue, what's the betting that once the focus groups show little or no interest it'll cease to be a major issue.

[Ralph]

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

Say you do this, Ralph.

Would you still preclude Scottish MP's voting on English-only matters in the Commons?

English matters would be dealt with by the English parliament. The House of Commons would only deal with UK matters - foreign policy etc.

I see. So would the English parliament have tax raising powers?

In would in England. It would deal with matters that concern England.

[Steve Hunt]

Lol @ major issue, what's the betting that once the focus groups show little or no interest it'll cease to be a major issue.

It is a major issue, rotary.

Anything that could potentially determine the outcome of general elections and the whole balance of power is a major issue.

That's why Labour are in such a frenzied state

[Steve Hunt]

Get rid of the unelected House of Lords & use the money saved to set up an elected English parliament. Simple.

Say you do this, Ralph.

Would you still preclude Scottish MP's voting on English-only matters in the Commons?

English matters would be dealt with by the English parliament. The House of Commons would only deal with UK matters - foreign policy etc.

I see. So would the English parliament have tax raising powers?

In would in England. It would deal with matters that concern England.

I reckon that with the model you propose, the United Kingdom would cease to exist within a generation, Ralph. Each devolved parliament would grow more and more powerful until the Union would be seen as unrepresentative (bit like the EU is now) and unwelcome.

[Ralph]

Lol @ major issue, what's the betting that once the focus groups show little or no interest it'll cease to be a major issue.

It is a major issue, rotary.

Anything that could potentially determine the outcome of general elections and the whole balance of power is a major issue.

That's why Labour are in such a frenzied state

Labour will have it's own answer to the West Lothian question by May 2015. It'll be similar to Lib Dem policy is my guess.