Labour; Have They Fallen Into A Conservative Trap?

[birdie]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -alexander

I thought Danny Alexander was suffering from severe Tory Stockholm syndrome but he's actually showing signs of thinking for himself.

It's almost as if the Torys and their apologists have forgotten they don't carry a majority in the HoC.

As it is they'll go into the next election with UKIP accusing them of shafting the English electorate in favour of the Jocks.

Cameron will have to deliver what he promised in the event of a no vote. He can't add conditions to it after the vote has taken place. If he didn't want the Scottish parlaiment getting more powers without the West Lothian question being answered he should have said so at the time.

It's not down to what it is the Tory manifesto, it will be Labour's position on an EU referendum and the English votes for English lawmakers that will matter.



Well he can, and he has and Labour haven't got a clue how to respond. Look at Milliband yesterday, skewered completely by Andrew Marr.

He can make a vow & break I days later. But why would anyone believe anything he pledges in the 2015 election. What weasel excuse will he come up with for not holding a referendum on our membership of the EU?

He made an excuse in 2010, as I remember it he gave a cast iron guarantee that we would have a referendum on the EU, then Ireland gave him an excuse, he can't use that one again, but he gave Cleggover a vote on Cleggys much loved PR, could have had the referendum vote at the same time. Oh dear, I forgot yer average voter is too dim to be able to put a x on two different bits of paper.

[birdie]

He can't deliver without the Libdems.

Oh dear.

Any constitutional changes Dave makes can be changed or repealed by a future governmet anyway.

You hope.

Did Labour, during their 13 years of power, repeal anything from the previous Tory regime?

Don't think so, c'mon Ralphy boy, tell us.

[the rotary club]

Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988.

Next.

[Hillman avenger]

Why is anyone stil attached to the tribal labour/ conservative crap?
They're all the same and the only thing any of them care about is getting their crappy obsolete party elected.
Vote UKIP

Fabulous.
Possibly a joke.
Reject the two because they are "tribal" but vote UKIP, the epitome of a tribe.

[Steve Hunt]

Why is anyone stil attached to the tribal labour/ conservative crap?
They're all the same and the only thing any of them care about is getting their crappy obsolete party elected.
Vote UKIP

Fabulous.
Possibly a joke.
Reject the two because they are "tribal" but vote UKIP, the epitome of a tribe.

Tribe or not (who cares?), UKIP do at least offer a clear alternative to the Big 3, Hillman.

That's the difference.

[Ralph]

He can't deliver without the Libdems.

Oh dear.

Any constitutional changes Dave makes can be changed or repealed by a future governmet anyway.

You hope.

Did Labour, during their 13 years of power, repeal anything from the previous Tory regime?

They repealed the ban on trade unions at GCHQ.

There's no question that governments can repeal/amend laws. They do it all the time.

The Health & Social Care Act will be repealed if Labour win in 2015 & the law that created Police & Crime Commissioners.

[Steve Hunt]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

They opened up a can of worms with the referendum (especially the last minute pledges) and all are now desperately trying to get some sort of advantage from it/not lose out

[the rotary club]

Why is anyone stil attached to the tribal labour/ conservative crap?
They're all the same and the only thing any of them care about is getting their crappy obsolete party elected.
Vote UKIP

Fabulous.
Possibly a joke.
Reject the two because they are "tribal" but vote UKIP, the epitome of a tribe.

Tribe or not (who cares?), UKIP do at least offer a clear alternative to the Big 3, Hillman.

That's the difference.

They only offer policitians bought and paid for by Wheeler / Sykes.

How much did Wheeler offer Carswell I wonder?

[Ralph]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

He's against a system that would in theory mean the Tories would permenantly control everything in England with a minority of the vote. Why would Labour the Lib Dems etc support that?

Cameron doesn't want a separate English Parliament/assembly elected with a proportional voting system. That would be fair - not a bugger's muddle where you have to work out every time there's a vote whether Welsh, Northern Irish, Scottish MPs should vote or not. Who would make the final decision?

It's a stupid idea that would leave the majoity of voters in England disinfranchised.

[caledonian1]

Labour are going to be obliterated in May 2015 in Scotland.

The SNP will win the majority of the seats. The fight for Independence goes on and I truly believe we will have it in 5 years now. There is so much anger in Scotland at present...anger at Labour, anger at their half cocked ill thought out devo-max promise of nothing of substance at all, anger at the MSM and their lies..anger at the BBC bias...etc etc

Tonight the SNP have overtaken the Lib Dems as the party with the 3rd most members in the UK...yes in the UK !!

18,000 have joined the SNP since Friday.....membership now above 43,000 and growing every minute. I for one will be doing more come May...many others are getting involved in politics...lets rid Scotland of the red, blue and yellow tories, the OO and the UKIP jokers...such a parcel of rogues

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/20 ... over-42000

[Holden Mcgroyne]

Labour are going to be obliterated in May 2015 in Scotland.

The SNP will win the majority of the seats. The fight for Independence goes on and I truly believe we will have it in 5 years now. There is so much anger in Scotland at present...anger at Labour, anger at their half cocked ill thought out devo-max promise of nothing of substance at all, anger at the MSM and their lies..anger at the BBC bias...etc etc

Tonight the SNP have overtaken the Lib Dems as the party with the 3rd most members in the UK...yes in the UK !!

18,000 have joined the SNP since Friday.....membership now above 43,000 and growing every minute. I for one will be doing more come May...many others are getting involved in politics...lets rid Scotland of the red, blue and yellow tories, the OO and the UKIP jokers...such a parcel of rogues

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/20 ... over-42000

Where's the Harry Enfield 'Calm down, calm down' vid ?

[Thursty]

Labour are going to be obliterated in May 2015 in Scotland.

The SNP will win the majority of the seats. The fight for Independence goes on and I truly believe we will have it in 5 years now. There is so much anger in Scotland at present...anger at Labour, anger at their half cocked ill thought out devo-max promise of nothing of substance at all, anger at the MSM and their lies..anger at the BBC bias...etc etc

Tonight the SNP have overtaken the Lib Dems as the party with the 3rd most members in the UK...yes in the UK !!

18,000 have joined the SNP since Friday.....membership now above 43,000 and growing every minute. I for one will be doing more come May...many others are getting involved in politics...lets rid Scotland of the red, blue and yellow tories, the OO and the UKIP jokers...such a parcel of rogues

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/20 ... over-42000

Where's the Harry Enfield 'Calm down, calm down' vid ?

Van Gaal's Firefox bookmarks.

[Steve Hunt]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

He's against a system that would in theory mean the Tories would permenantly control everything in England with a minority of the vote. Why would Labour the Lib Dems etc support that?

It's politics, Ralph.

Just as Lib/Dems & Labour refusing to support the proposed boundary changes recommended by the electoral commission.

It's a dirty business.

[Ralph]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

He's against a system that would in theory mean the Tories would permenantly control everything in England with a minority of the vote. Why would Labour the Lib Dems etc support that?

It's politics, Ralph.

Just as Lib/Dems & Labour refusing to support the proposed boundary changes recommended by the electoral commission.

It's a dirty business.

Any constitutional changes can be repealed. More than half of England would be permanently stuck with a government they didn't vote for. Why would anyone but the Tories agree to that? It would make Putin's Russia look like a beacon of democracy.

[Steve Hunt]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

He's against a system that would in theory mean the Tories would permenantly control everything in England with a minority of the vote. Why would Labour the Lib Dems etc support that?

It's politics, Ralph.

Just as Lib/Dems & Labour refusing to support the proposed boundary changes recommended by the electoral commission.

It's a dirty business.

Any constitutional changes can be repealed. More than half of England would be permanently stuck with a government they didn't vote for. Why would anyone but the Tories agree to that? .

.................and why should Scottish MP's vote on purely English matters? If Labour refuse to acknowledge this, Milliband might just clutch defeat from the jaws of victory in May.

We can go around in circles, Ralph. At end of day, they opened up a can of worms, especially with the last minute pledges.

Now it is payback time. I despise Cameron & everything about him. But he has played a blinder here (or, more likely, he has fluked it). Either way, Labour have been placed in a lose lose position.

[Ralph]

I hope Cameron, Gove and co are recognised for their utter cynicism in this.

Seriously Hillman, what do you expect.

They are politicians. Milliband is being just as cynical by trying to deny English votes for English laws.

He's against a system that would in theory mean the Tories would permenantly control everything in England with a minority of the vote. Why would Labour the Lib Dems etc support that?

It's politics, Ralph.

Just as Lib/Dems & Labour refusing to support the proposed boundary changes recommended by the electoral commission.

It's a dirty business.

Any constitutional changes can be repealed. More than half of England would be permanently stuck with a government they didn't vote for. Why would anyone but the Tories agree to that? .

.................and why should Scottish MP's vote on purely English matters? If Labour refuse to acknowledge this, Milliband might just clutch defeat from the jaws of victory in May.

We can go around in circles, Ralph. At end of day, they opened up a can of worms, especially with the last minute pledges.

Now it is payback time. I despise Cameron & everything about him. But he has played a blinder here (or, more likely, he has fluked it). Either way, Labour have been placed in a lose lose position.

Cameron went into the last election promising the same thing.

Why should England be permanently ruled by a party the majority haven't voted for? That's just replacing one unfairness with an even worse one. There are numerous ways to deal with the West Lothian question without installing the Tories permanently in power on a minority of the vote.

[Steve Hunt]

Cameron went into the last election promising the same thing.

Why should England be permanently ruled by a party the majority haven't voted for? That's just replacing one unfairness with an even worse one. There are numerous ways to deal with the West Lothian question without installing the Tories permanently in power on a minority of the vote.

In your worst case scenario, do you really think the tories would always be in power, Ralph?

I don't. Especially when you consider that Labour are far more likely to hoover up LibDem votes, who i think have just about had it.

Besides, if the Scottish posters on here are correct, Labour will be obliterated in Scotland next May - so it won't make any difference.

[Steve Hunt]

Cameron went into the last election promising the same thing.

Well, we all know the value of anything he promises, Ralph.

But, he's not alone. They are all as bad as each other.

[Steve Hunt]

Why should England be permanently ruled by a party the majority haven't voted for? .

That's how it normally works anyway, Ralph.

[Holden Mcgroyne]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

[Steve Hunt]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

Yes, that seems to be Ralph's stance.

I can see where he is coming from. The prospect of a permanent Tory government (given how pathetic they have become) is not an appealing one.

However, with the inevitable collapse of the LibDems & the rise of UKIP, I'm not sure that Ralph's nightmare scenario would necessarily come to fruition.

[Ralph]

Cameron went into the last election promising the same thing.

Why should England be permanently ruled by a party the majority haven't voted for? That's just replacing one unfairness with an even worse one. There are numerous ways to deal with the West Lothian question without installing the Tories permanently in power on a minority of the vote.

In your worst case scenario, do you really think the tories would always be in power, Ralph?

I don't. Especially when you consider that Labour are far more likely to hoover up LibDem votes, who i think have just about had it.

Besides, if the Scottish posters on here are correct, Labour will be obliterated in Scotland next May - so it won't make any difference.

They would be permanently in charge of English only legislation with a minority of the votes in England. But the chances of Labour not repealing that legislation are zero - The chances of it getting onto the statute book are next to zero.

Dave would need to win a majority in 2015 & persuade people in England they need the Tories ruling them forever with a minority of the votes in England.

[Ralph]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

I don't support a system that would mean permanent Tory rule in England with a minority of the English vote.

[Steve Hunt]

They would be permanently in charge of English only legislation with a minority of the votes in England.

..................but still, presumably voted for by more people in England than any other party?

[Steve Hunt]

So to get this right Ralph. You support a system that puts Labour in power on a minority of the vote in England, Scotland and Wales, but think it terrible that we move to a system, post devolving more powers north, where the Tories get into power on a minority of the vote in England and Wales ?

I don't support a system that would mean permanent Tory rule in England with a minority of the English vote.

But I bet you would support a system that would mean permanent Labour rule in England with a minority of the English vote.