Overtime Should Count in Holiday Pay

[Steve Hunt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29896810

Cue more small businesses going bust:

"This is a real blow to UK businesses now facing the prospect of punitive costs potentially running into billions of pounds - and not all will survive, which could mean significant job losses," said CBI director general John Cridland.

It certainly will. One things for sure, it will make the UK less competitive. Can't see India and Far East following suit.

[colinthewarriormonkey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29896810

Cue more small businesses going bust:

"This is a real blow to UK businesses now facing the prospect of punitive costs potentially running into billions of pounds - and not all will survive, which could mean significant job losses," said CBI director general John Cridland.

It certainly will. One things for sure, it will make the UK less competitive. Can't see India and Far East following suit.

What a load of bollocks, overtime is on top of your normal pay, you work overtime you get a bit more pay in your pocket.

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay, any form of job security is out the window, no provision for sickness - no employers NI contributions, no employers pension.

People should realise when they have it good compared to the working conditions to most of the world.

[Steve Hunt]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

[warmleatherette]

This will be appealed and revoked, how it was won in the first place is beyond me.

[warmleatherette]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

No they're not, if you continually employ someone as a "self employed" person over a period of of time you then have to take them on your books, that in turn entitles them to employment rights such as holiday pay because they are no longer "self employed".

[Steve Hunt]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

No they're not, if you continually employ someone as a "self employed" person over a period of of time .

If you do that then HMRC requires you take them on the books so that they can be paid Employers NIC, warm

[warmleatherette]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

No they're not, if you continually employ someone as a "self employed" person over a period of of time .

If you do that then HMRC requires you take them on the books so that they can be paid Employers NIC, warm

That's what I said, self employed people aren't entitled to holiday pay.

[birdie]

In some cases I suppose it would pay an employer to hire an extra bod than to pay overtime, that way there wouldn't be a problem.

[Steve Hunt]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

No they're not, if you continually employ someone as a "self employed" person over a period of of time .

If you do that then HMRC requires you take them on the books so that they can be paid Employers NIC, warm

That's what I said, self employed people aren't entitled to holiday pay.

In theory they are, warm.
Our accountants have advised that if we take a subbie on for only a week, they are entitled to at least a percentage.
It doesn't work in practice (yet), but I'm sure over time it will become the norm after a few landmark rulings.

Of course, the end result will be an ever expanding "cash in hand" economy. Something that always seems to escape our all knowing rulers. Perhaps if any of them had ever had a job outside Westminster they would grasp the reality.

[warmleatherette]

I see a way round this - make everyone a self employed contractor

Then no one gets any holiday pay

Not in the building trade, colin.
Self employed sub contractors (not limited companies) are already entitled to holiday pay:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... MpgNXfKYCg

No they're not, if you continually employ someone as a "self employed" person over a period of of time .

If you do that then HMRC requires you take them on the books so that they can be paid Employers NIC, warm

That's what I said, self employed people aren't entitled to holiday pay.

In theory they are, warm.
Our accountants have advised that if we take a subbie on for only a week, they are entitled to at least a percentage.
It doesn't work in practice (yet), but I'm sure over time it will become the norm after a few landmark rulings.

Of course, the end result will be an ever expanding "cash in hand" economy. Something that always seems to escape our all knowing rulers. Perhaps if any of them had ever had a job outside Westminster they would grasp the reality.

It's only a theory because there's such a grey area in how long you can use a subbie before you have to take them on the cards, until you do they have no rights to holiday pay, if they kicked up about it then they would have to choose between being self employed with all the perks of being as such or going on the cards.... Or of course becoming a ltd company.

[Steve Hunt]

Email received today from our accountants:

As you will probably be aware, the Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) handed down judgment in three holiday pay appeals yesterday, and although the decision will undoubtedly lead to higher holiday pay for many employees in the future, the judgment may significantly limit the liability for back pay.

​The decision means that many elements of pay that are currently excluded from holiday pay, such as non-contractual overtime and other elements of pay that ‘go with the job’ should be taken into account when calculating holiday pay.

​Permission has been given to appeal the decision to the Court of Appeal and it is too early at this stage to start making changes to contracts as there is so much uncertainty regarding the extent to which the employer’s obligations will change.

We would, however, advise clients to put financial contingencies in place where possible as it is highly likely that, ultimately, employees whose holiday pay is less than their normal pay will be entitled to an element of back-pay.

[Zambo]

This is black and white as most things are. If you are doing regular overtime, then your salary should be adjusted. Overtime is something that should be as and when required.

All holiday pay should be at base rate. That is unless you do overtime when you are on holiday, and I do all of the time.